Transcript

Jared McCormack

Welcome to MFA Writers, the podcast where we talk to creative writing MFA students about their program, their process, and a piece they're working on. I'm your host, Jared McCormack. Today, I'm excited to bring you all our annual application episode, and I'm even more excited to be joined by Ron Shavers, the director of the creative writing program at the University of Utah, where they offer both an MFA and a PhD in creative writing. Ron is the author of the experimental Afrofuturist novel Silverfish from Clash Books, a finalist for the 2021 Council of Literary Magazines and Presses Firecracker Award in Fiction, and one of the Brooklyn Rail's best books of 2020. He's also fiction and hybrid genre editor at the award-winning journal Obsidian, Literature and Arts in the African Diaspora. Ron, thanks so much for being here.

Rone Shavers

Thanks for having me.

Jared McCormack

I'm excited to chat with you. But before we get to the MFAs and the PhDs, I want to talk a bit about your novel Silverfish, which has been described as mixing Afrofuturism, sci-fi, and wartime fiction with linguistic and literary theories. So I think it's safe to say that you're doing some interesting things in this book, right? You're taking some literary risks. Do you mind telling listeners a bit about that book?

Rone Shavers

Yeah, well, I mean, where do I kind of even begin? But it's, you know, it's kind of aesthetically, I was just like, hey, I wanted, you know, I was on the wrong side of 40, you know, trying to write conventional fiction and realize that it wasn't what I really wanted to do in a story that I really wanted to tell in a conventional way. So I just sort of sat back and said, OK, let me do it my way. And that's how the kind of book began to kind of come together. But it's also just a You know, I kind of had this big overarching thought in my head and that was like, what if we took neoliberalism to its logical extreme? So in the book, there's no longer even a calendar. They just measure time by like the cycles of the Dow and everything is done to kind of spur the market, you know, and just sort of like, what would that look like? How would that affect people, everything else? It's a really short book. I tried to condense a lot. You know, I didn't want to write a thousand page novel in which people just hurl it across the room. Yeah, that just mixes a lot of genres and styles and ideas.

Jared McCormack

I'm curious to hear you talk a little bit more about that process of, you said being on the other side of 40 or the wrong side of 40. What was it like, I don't know, writing what you called conventional fiction and then realizing you needed to do something different. Like what did that look like? What did that process look like? At what point did you realize what I'm trying to write isn't working and isn't really what I want to be doing anyway?

Rone Shavers

Yeah, that's great. I mean, because, um, the M in MFA doesn't stand for market, you know, and part of what I was doing was trying to appease, let's just say, a kind of mainstream commercial literary market that I really wasn't that interested in, but just sort of felt like, hey, this is what I need to be doing. I mean, I think kind of it's, a you know, when you're younger or we've all been young, we have these romantic notions of what a writer is going to be like, and hey, I'm going to, you know, like you we have all these examples of people who do write great books that sell, right? But it's not for everyone. And it's sort of like, you know, you need to kind of stay true to yourself as a writer and true to your vision. And I realized that I was sort of slipping away from what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do it, and even how I'd been taught to a certain degree.

Jared McCormack

It's easy though to fall into that kind of pattern of writing stories that will get published or that you think will get published, right? Like, yeah like where you sit down and like when you're drafting the story, you're already thinking about, okay, what do I have to do so that like an editor is going to like this first page and like, how do you break out of that mentality once you've already found yourself there?

Rone Shavers

A hundred percent. Yeah. I thought, um, you know, I mean, the book has done fairly well. And it shocked me, to be honest, because I was like, OK, yeah, these are for like, you know, my five homies were really good. like You know, but I mean, I think that was it was sort of realizing that, OK, like this is a book that I want to write in the way that I want to write it, as opposed to, you know, I threw audience out of the window or I just put audience aside because if it found an audience great, if it didn't, that was OK. I do remember, and it's just totally seared into my brain, after writing the book and everything, and it did take quite a while to get published. It took a few years to get published. You know, I was saying to somebody, I think I just made a big hot mess, but it's a beautiful mess and I love it, right? So, yeah, and, and you know, but and it was really kind of just getting over this pressure to kind of make a commercially viable book that helped me write the book that I wanted to do. Was there a moment when you started writing this book where you felt like, yeah, this is it, like this, this is like what I want to be doing? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like the book, actually, a lot of times in the book, I'm not going to go too deep into it because then, I'm you know, it'll be 40 minutes later. But, you know, there are parts in the book that consist of quotes and passages and everything else that reference other books. And that was the moment when I just fell into a groove. where It was like, oh, like the reader's either going to make sense of this or they're not. right And it's OK. I mean, my uncle, ah God bless him. you know He's like, I read that twice. I still can't understand what this book is about. And so, you know, I mean, but that's what I mean. It's like when I let go of the need to kind of appeal to a mainstream audience, I think, right? Like then I kind of began to craft the work that I wanted to craft. The other thing about it, which I sometimes say is, oh yeah, I mean, I wasn't making any money, you know, for my writing anyway. So, so you know, and I'm still not making any money for my writing really, but, but what you know, but yeah, I was just like, so let's just make the you know the artifact that I want to make, right the thing that best represents me in the world right at that particular moment.

Jared McCormack

I've heard this criticism of creative writing programs that they're not really built for people who are writing work that's outside the box, that sometimes MFA programs can kind of push writers into this kind of conventional direction. I mean You got your BA in Literature and Languages from Bennington College, an MFA in Creative Writing from the New School, and a PhD in English from the University of Illinois at Chicago. So I imagine you've been in a lot of workshops over the years. Yes, yeah. I'm curious to hear what your experience was like writing work that was outside the box, or if you were just writing conventional, quote-unquote, conventional stories while you're in these programs, because that's what you felt like you were supposed to do.

Rone Shavers

Yeah, I mean, I think through, you know, through the course of those degrees. I think I've sort of done like six ways from Sunday. You know When I was younger, I started writing conventional stuff because that was the only work I knew. But I mean, I was lucky to even be exposed to a lot of experimental work as an undergrad. I kind of don't really buy the fact that, oh, like, I mean, I know it's a common argument of like, MFA is just pushing one type of writer. I disagree you know a lot. There are certain MFA programs that do, and then there are others that don't. And I'm going to you know I'm probably going to fall back on this little chestnut throughout this interview, but it's always like, do your research. you know and so if you want to find a place that's going to support that, are there writers at that program that are maybe doing something really funky, or is everybody doing something very kind of straightforward? you know so really, it's kind of it comes down just to kind of looking at it. And you know there's a big proliferation of MFA programs in a whole bunch of different styles now. So you can find something that best fits what you want to do. Even if you don't necessarily know what you want to do as a writer yet as a younger writer and looking at MFAs and trying to start out, you can still do that research to be like, OK, right? I want to push back against the pressure that all MFA programs teach writers how to write in one certain way, right? I mean, and you know, really upset Mark McGurl in that way. But, but yeah, but you know, but it's more about like, can this program accommodate this sort of writing? The other thing too, though, is You know, even just to kind of get outside of this is geared towards MFA people. But, you know, it's also like there's nothing to stop you from reading outside of class or just reading all the stuff that, you know, that's a great amount of exposure to and a way of finding kind of, you know, the people who have come before you. So.

Jared McCormack

Okay, so nowadays you direct the creative writing program at the University of Utah and teach there. How do you think that professors and programs can foster that kind of environment that's welcoming to people who are writing in different genres?

Rone Shavers

Yeah, once again, it depends on the program, right? I haven't really looked at too many programs out there, but I know that there are some that, you know, you can even do some that focus on commercial fiction now or screenwriting or children's books or, you know, like actually the latest kind of trend is to open it up to genre work. Right. And I'm not saying genre in a pejorative way. I'm saying it in a positive way. Yeah. Right. So, you know, once again, that comes back to research and really kind of, you know, we're choosing where you want to go and doing what it is that you want to do. If you don't have a vision, that's fine too. But just realizing that, you know, when you don't have a vision, people will sort of try to guide you. And not having a vision when you go into an MFA is fine, but With a PhD, you should have a little at least a little bit more, right? A little bit of an idea of what you want to do and how you want to do it.

Jared McCormack

You mentioned that idea of using the term genre as a pejorative. We've been describing Silverfish as experimental. And I saw an interview you did a while back in which you said that that term, experimental, can sometimes be used as a pejorative. So I'm curious to hear you talk about that a little bit. And in what ways you've seen that term used against writers?

Rone Shavers

Oh, man, you got four days? Well, for example, right, you know, you can send even if you're just doing something that that's off the beaten path, depending on the temperament of the person who's reading it, they you might say, oh, well, this is sort of like you can send it to an agent and that agent might be like, well, this is sort of experimental. You know, can we change all this into like a housewife on Peoria right know or And kind of experimental is also a bit of a kiss of death in the publishing world because you know I think publishing and writing, there they're overlapping, but let's not forget that publishing is a market and The larger the press, the more they're in it for a kind of commercial enterprise. And you know you can reap great rewards from that. I know some writers, you know and I can count them on one hand, but it's their profession, right? And they publish with larger houses, but there are also kind of commercial pressures that come along with that, which I think people need to realize. you know And one is that you do need to, as I say, move units.

Jared McCormack

So how do you like to think about your work?

Rone Shavers

yeah just it's funky yeah you know like you know sort of When I talk about letting go, it's kind of fun because, I mean, I do i do all these strange little pieces and strange things, right? But I'm also kind of secure enough in the fact now, and it took me ah wow about maybe like 10 or 15 years to kind of get there, right? to not really worry about kind of putting a label on my own work because, I'm in academia, so I'm kind of relatively insulated in that way. But I mean, also in my heart of hearts, I do believe that that's the critic's job to say, hey, you know a critic can take silverfish and they can take David Copperfield from Dickens and show how they overlap, although that would be a really major stretch, right? That would be a tough road. But I mean, I do see this a lot too, where people, especially with the proliferation of genres, everybody's trying to claim their own kind of individual thing of like, no, I'm not just slipstream, I'm new goth slipstream, you know, or it' something like that. And it's like, that's work you don't really have to do. Because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what genre you're in. It matters about the work itself right and what people get from reading it. So yeah, you know I mean, that said, right you know this is geared towards programs. There are programs that are going to help you push it along in the genre or even maybe help define or redefine it in some way because you'll be doing immense you know you'll be doing deep dives into it. so

Jared McCormack

I guess it goes back to that, like what we were saying about when drafting a story, kind of turning off that part of your brain that's thinking about, what do I have to do to get this published? right I guess it's similar when thinking about your own work, not to get wrapped up in, well, how am I going to describe this later when I'm trying to sell it, right? Just focusing on, on you know, just drafting and writing it.

Rone Shavers

Yeah, the key word there, right? The key word is draft, right? You know what I mean? We all know that our work evolves over time, right? And so even once it's done, you can sit back and say, oh, this is what I see going on. Or this is what is speaking in it or whatever. And you know, like, that's what happens just through the writing process and writing and rewriting. So, you know, let's not put the cart before the horse.

Jared McCormack

Yeah, yeah. I was just thinking as you were saying that as much as I've sometimes felt pressured in the drafting process, thinking about how is this going to get published? What do I have to do to get this published? I've also found solace in telling myself, well, this is just a draft. Like it's going to change so much before I ever send this out anyway. So I don't even need to worry about that.

Rone Shavers

Yeah, you know, it's a sandlot. Make a friggin mess. yeah You know, I mean, you know, this is your like you will begin to kind of see the threads and weave them together, you know, but you actually will constrict yourself if you were already kind of thinking of the market before you're writing it, because that's when you begin to kind of fall into common tropes and cliches, you know.

Jared McCormack

All right, well, you've attended both an MFA program and a PhD program, and the program you teach in now has both of those things. So what would you say are the biggest differences between the MFA and the PhD?

Rone Shavers

Wow, there's a lot. Yeah, yeah there's a lot. Firstly, for an MFA, right? you know it's sort of where you begin your kind of apprenticeship or you know you leave and you got it all. But with a PhD, it's like you are an expert in your field. you know So that comes along with a lot of scholarly work. you know that That involves using you know leaning into the intellectual life of academia. The number one pitfall I see is that people think that a PhD is just going to be an MFA on steroids, when it's a totally different animal. I mean, we're talking like, you know, gorillas and whales. They're both mammals. You know, but, you know, it's sort of like, because oddly enough, they're both them professional training programs, but the MFA is training you to be a writer and the PhD is training you to be a scholar, critic and thinker, you know, and there's a lot of overlap there, but they're not completely identical. And so yeah, like go in it with open eyes in that respect. You know, usually about once a year, and it was actually, I'll tell a personal story, because I remember my first, after I had a, you know, I had my, I took time off between my BA and my MFA, which I think was good. And then, you know, I had my MFA, then I went and got my PhD. And I remember my first semester, I was like, I was talking to a Dean, And I was like, oh, they want me to do this and that and they want me to do all this work and that work and this work and that work. You know, I was like, but, you know, it's like I'm a writer, I have a life. And the dean kind of sat me down. I had my little come to Jesus moment. Ron, this is your life. You know, it's like you chose this, you know. And, you know, I actually replicate that conversation and usually about once a year with ah but somebody in the first year program and say, hey, and they're like, oh, I have to learn this theory or I have to learn X or I have to learn Y. And it's taking time away from my writing. And I have to say, well, yeah, but this is what you signed up for. You signed up for, you know, things if you just want to write, you're good with an MFA. That is a terminal degree, right? If you want to kind of go on and do other things that align with writing and even begin to sort of unpack writing and critiquing and thinking and then even just changing the way you even approach literature and thinking about writing, then yeah, the PhD is for you. but just realizing that it's not the same. Even if a program says that, hey, we're going to give you time to write, there's still things like committee work. If you're lucky or if you know if you're good, you'll be teaching at some point. right All these things that that kind of come along with, they're training you to be a scholar. right And at the end of the day, If you want to do that, great, go for it. If that's not what you want to do and you just want to focus on your writing, you'll be better off focusing on your writing. Um, to skip ahead in terms of even just gaming this out a little bit, because we're talking like places will tell you can do it in two years. You don't want to do it in two years. I mean, because part of it also is just like the people you will meet, the relationships you will develop among your cohort and your professors, everything else. It takes time. And you do want to grow and change and evolve as an intellectual. ah But, so we're talking about, you know you know, if you want to spend the next five years, sometimes seven, you know, depending on, on you know, and this is realistic, realistic numbers here. Like, you know, if you want to spend the next five years of your life just, or if you don't want to spend the next five years of your life exploring all these other topics and ideas and really just learning and growing, then stick with an MFA, you know. you'll be great, you'll be fine. Some of the best writers you know like we can think of don't have PhDs, right? and they're teaching in great programs, but then there are others that do, right? But they're also doing other things. So be real about your goals and expect to be somewhat naive about your expectations, but expect your expectations to change the more you kind of go deeper into the program.

Jared McCormack

You mentioned how the MFA is a terminal degree. This is another thing that I've heard people talk about and some people complain. that the PhD actually diminishes the MFA because the MFA is already a terminal degree. Why do we need this PhD? I want to hear your opinion on that. Based on what you've said so far, my take is that the PhD prepares you to be a professor and a scholar more than the MFA does. I'm curious if you agree with that and also how the PhD improves people's job prospects because that's another reason I hear people say they want to get the PhD because it will improve their job prospects.

Rone Shavers

Yeah, well, we all know once you get a PhD, you get paid like a professional athlete. Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, like I'd see it, but I'm not a fan of it, although I know it's out there and that's just pushed towards what's sometimes called professionalization. All right. You know, but if you have an MFA or I'm just going to throw a completely fantastic hypothetical out there, right. If you have an MFA and a National Book Award and a Whiting Award and a MacArthur Genius Grant and you know New York is pounding on your door like every other week, you know I don't think you're going to have a problem getting a job.

Jared McCormack

Yeah. I don't think you need a job.

Rone Shavers

Right. Exactly. Yeah. you know Or even just one of those awards. right you know so i mean like But, you know, you could be the most brilliant David Copperfield. I don't know why I have David Copperfield on the brain. But, you know, you could be a brilliant Dickens scholar, right? Along with a great writer, the job market might be tough for you. Like there's no, you know, again, kind of going into it with open eyes is realizing that a lot of people think it's just kind of cause and effect, or I'm going to do A and then B is going to happen. But yeah, like for English, and most writing programs are housed in an English department, which is another part of the scholarly thing. But unless your dad is a provost at an Ivy League school, or runs ah you know and are unless you have some kind of connection where there's a job waiting for you, right there's no guarantee that once you finish, something like nothing's going to fall into your lap. All right, you might have to beep this out, but well, I'll do the PG-13 version. But yeah, like, you know, you work and you work and you work for your, you know, you pass your exams and you get your PhD and it's like winning the Super Bowl and nobody gives an F. right yeah you know but So yeah, right, you mean outside of your social circle. right you know But then also realize that the difference between a PhD and an MFA is you know, the PhD, those letters can sometimes be intimidating. There will be times where somebody might tell you that you're overqualified for something or that kind of stuff. You know, you do kind of, it's changed during my lifetime, right? And I see it changing more and more, but you know, there's still this thing where if you have a PhD, you're somewhat kind of locked into certain kinds of tracks, or you feel you might feel like you're locked in a certain kind of tracks. You're not. And like I'm saying, it's changing, you know, almost like, you know, day by day. But that is part of it, you know, you can do an MFA, you can do totally fine with it, right? You know, and some people who are getting PhDs, maybe shouldn't, you know, if you just want to write, the PhD demands your time in a different way. And an MFA supports your writing time. There are a whole bunch of other ancillary duties that you need to do when you have a PhD that are going to be expected of you. Like, and one is even learning theory, you know, of some sort. Yeah. Right. Regardless of whether that's composition theory or narrative theory or whatever, the expectation from a professor's point of view is you're going to be 10 times smarter than when you entered the program, not having produced 10 times more material, but just 10 times smarter. Right. That is our goal. We will help you kind of get there. But at the end of the day, you know that's what we do.

Jared McCormack

All right, well, I'm sure that there are many people listening to this episode who are at least considering pursuing a PhD in creative writing. So what advice do you have for those people who are trying to decide if this is the right path for them? Are there questions that you think they should ask themselves before taking this leap?

Rone Shavers

Yeah, the big one is like, are you willing to give up about five years? Or a better way to put that would be, are you willing to like, are you willing to evolve? because your thinking will evolve, your writing style will evolve, even for those who have an MFA now or are thinking about an MFA, even by the time you get out of your MFA program, how you view books, how you're writing things, it's changed so much, right? This is, it's gonna be a similar thing here. It's gonna, like every time it's an exponential growth. It's not just one, two, three, it's like first to the, one to the first, one to the second, one to the third, you know, or X to the first, X to the second, X to the third, if I can get a bit more math-like. But yeah, so that would be part of it. And once again, I told you this was going to come back. Do your research. It always pays to do the research. See who teaches in the program, right? But also every program will kind of tell you what they're known for. Some places do, some places keep a focus on conventional work, straight ahead work. And they're great. I would be like the most famous example or Columbia, right? Some places are not more known for experimental lit, right? Like Utah would be one. Here's a secret too. Here's an interesting one. And here's a good way to sort of even know what you're getting into. And that's to see, like, are the writers in their own department or are they part of the English department? Because that you know like that would even that might save you a little bit of grief, headache, and heartache, because that's going to let you know how much English study is weighted into the program itself. I know we're supposed to be talking about PhDs, but they're adjacent. Like, they're three different models for MFAs. There's a research model, there's a studio model, and there's a combination studio slash research model. Research just means you're doing a lot of reading, you're doing that kind of stuff, and that's the kind of emphasis. It's more kind of like an English track with a creative writing emphasis. A studio model is you're mostly doing writing, you're mostly doing workshops, and you know that's what you do. But there are things that are secondary to that. And the main focus is on your growth and development writing. And then a studio slash research model is a combination of both, where you'll be taking lit classes and then you'll also be taking writing workshops. Four times out of five, if you even just sort of look at a program to see what that ratio is or how it's weighted or what they're doing. the more and of an informed decision you can make, the better and the happier you'll be. So like that's a good way of kind of knowing what you're getting into. I went back for my PhD because I wanted to read more lit.

Jared McCormack

So it sounds to me like the PhD then tends to be more the scholarly version of the MFA. Would you say that that's true or would you say that some PhDs are also leaning more towards the studio model than other PhDs are?

Rone Shavers

I think it's both, right? I think there's a full spectrum out there. You know, I mean, and as much as I'm scholarly, scholarly, scholarly, it's because like, you know, it's part of me is just being reactionary because somebody's like, why do I have to learn this stuff? And it's like, because you've signed up for it. like You know, this is what you wanted to do. Or especially, I mean, like, for those who are interested in a career in teaching as well, because that kind of came up to, you know, if you want to teach, you're gonna have to learn, you're gonna have to know some stuff about some books, right? You just can't be like, hey, don't tweet don't you think like this is a great character? No, you're actually gonna have something to say, something of substance. So it's the ability to kind of, to do that and to, there were two reasons why I wanted to do it, two benefits for me. I was already leaning towards more experimental work and I got exposed to a lot more. Um, I also got exposed to theory, which gave me a way to articulate what it was that I was trying to do and how I was trying to do it. And that's something I can directly credit to my PhD program as well. Right. I mean, let's not get it twisted. I was in writing workshops all the time too, you know, and writing, right? Um, you know, so, so there's that, right? And, you know, it's not just all scholarly, scholarly, scholarly. It's not either, or it's plus and.

Jared McCormack

I imagine the majority of students who attend the PhD in creative writing at Utah and other schools have MFAs before attending, but do you accept students who are from other backgrounds?

Rone Shavers

Yeah. Yeah. And that's where kind of research comes into play too. I mean, you can just simply go to, you can look at people's websites and they'll tell you what they prefer. We have a preference for students that already have an MFA, you know, because we are a little, um, You know, we do we're in an English department, so, you know, we like our students to be well-versed in English. To say it in a less diplomatic way, we want to make sure our students can handle literature classes, right? So they're just not flying blind or feeling like they've been thrown to the wolves. But we also have a BA to PhD, right? It's rare, but we only take about one or two students a year, you know, and we have an MFA, we have a modular MFA. we There's a full gamut that you can apply to. And at the end of the day, I think it's important to know that at least at Utah, we're not here to replicate ourselves. And when we see work that's really interesting and makes a compelling case for itself, like that's when we pounce or we're like, yay, you're in. But yeah, there's not any particular sort of maker model that we want that we kind of like to see come across the transom.

Jared McCormack

So whether students are coming from MFAs or they're coming from completely different backgrounds, what do you think is the best way to prepare for the PhD before attending?

Rone Shavers

That is a great question. Wow, I really love that question. Any kind of literary study is good. I can even think back to some of the stuff I learned in my undergrad, you know which popped back up when I was doing my PhD things like deconstruction or something like that. I guess if I had to kind of just be clear about it, right? It's to not shy away from the kind of critical things, right? Lean into it a little. And ah by critical, I mean small c. There's no need to memorize a whole theoretical thing or you know I don't want to hear about your personal relationship with Marx or anything else. right you know but at least like you know who Marx is, know what the major ideas are, right spend a little bit of time just maybe boning up on that kind of stuff. Or you know even I told you I'm going to keep just leaning back into this too. You can also look at whatever institution you're looking at to see what they do. They specialize in teaching something on the English side, right? Like are they, are they known for being like really big theorists or are they known for Marxism or are they known for like psychoanalysis? Because that, that's going to let you know kind of what the English course is, or you can even just look at the English courses and see, right? Some places still kind of teach canonical text, somewhere on the cutting edge of contemporary lit. So I mean, even just in terms of boning up, You don't need to reinvent the wheel of cram, but just be aware of the kind of intellectual trends that are out there. Just take a dive. And if you see and if there's something that you're already leaning towards or liking, right? Yeah, by all means, go for it. That's exciting.

Jared McCormack

Well, before anyone attends, they have to first get into the program. So let's talk a bit about the application process itself. I know that MFA applications require a writing sample, a statement of purpose, letters of recommendation, among other things. What are the requirements for the PhD application and how do they differ from the MFA?

Rone Shavers

I can only speak about here and that's we require a critical sample as well. So it can be a, you know, to even kind of just tie it back in with the previous question it can be a paper that you wrote in college, it can be your, m it can be like your kind of critical thesis at your MFA or whatever, you know, just because we actually do want to make sure again that you're not totally floundering in these other classes. You know, some of them ask for, whereas you have maybe had to do a statement of purpose in your MFA application, some of them ask for, you know, a kind of statement of what it is that you want to do or a statement of study, what is it you want to study. So that is something that you want to think about before you apply. And once again, if we're, you know, if I'm going to spill all the tea, right, if there are professors there that you know you want to work with, name them, right? But don't just say like, I want to work with Professor Jones, right? Give a reason why, mention how it kind of fits into like how your vision sort of aligns with their creative work or whatever, what have you. You know, don't just apply to a program willy-nilly. Oh, this just popped in my head, but I'm also just gonna like, you know. Bookmark this. For most PhD programs, too, you still need letters of recommendation. Here is the best way to ask for a letter of recommendation. you know And it was a student that kind of did this. And I was at a different institution then, but it all blew our minds. And like it's stuck in my head since then. First off, yeah make sure you give your former instructor or your professor or whatever enough time to actually write the letter. But then you know, say, hey. Dear professor, I was in this class of yours and this class of yours and this class of yours, and I learned A, B, and C. I'm applying to this program because I want to do X, Y, and Z. well you Can you write a letter for me? And then that gives that, you know, the professor doesn't have to think about your performance. It doesn't have to come scan his or her brain or their brain. Right. You know, and you've already given them the material in which to work with to craft a really great letter for you. And that is another thing, too, that I think people just need to know is that, you know, as always, your sample is the most important thing. But, you know, we will look at your letters, too. And I've seen some clunkers out there. I never felt the student for it, but I've seen some clunky letters written by professors that don't really say much. You know, and I think it's a shame always, but a clunker, like a clunker letter won't kill your application. You know, quite the opposite. I just think more like. yo, you know, kind of professor, like, yo, dude, what's up? Like, come on, like, you know, yeah.

Jared McCormack

But as the applicant, any way that you can make that easier on the professor, less likely you're going to get a clunker submitted.

Rone Shavers

100, 100,000%. Yes. Right. Yeah. You know, so that's kind of an important thing. I know that's sort of, that's slightly off topic, but that's, that's an important thing to kind of remember.

Jared McCormack

Yeah, no, I don't think it's off topic at all. I think anything related to the application materials and the process I think is welcome advice to our listeners. So you've kind of mentioned this already, but over the years, I've gotten a pretty clear sense that the writing sample is the most important part of the MFA application. And I imagine it's the same for the PhD, but I'd like to hear you talk about that a little bit. What are other things besides the writing sample are you looking at and thinking about? How might you think about the PhD application differently than you do an MFA application?

Rone Shavers

Oh, that's really great. Yeah, I like that. The writing sample is first and foremost, always the most important thing, right? You know, if you're going to lose sleep working on something, make sure that that's your writing sample. Um, bring your A game. Okay. Like nothing less. That said, you know, for an MFA or PhD, right? Oh, and make sure you turn off track changes. I'm just, you know, yeah I know it seems like a simple thing, but yeah, but people forget. And then it's just, you know, you shake your head, right? Um, but, um, but that said, I'm also, I think what, what maybe differs is, you know, level of skill and talent, you know, ah you can like, it's okay to be a little raw, right? Or even just still kind of be feeling your way. You can even be a little raw and feeling your way in a PhD program as well, right? I'm not total gloom and doom over here. But I think what's more important, or what, what actually kind of helps too, is when you're writing these samples, and you're asked to talk about them, how you can contextualize your work. Right. And, you know, this is just a pet peeve of mine. It's only me. Right. So I'm speaking as a civilian and not as a representative of all PhD programs anywhere. But don't tell me how important your work is. Not interested. Right. Because then it just sounds like you're tooting your own horn. And if it's that great, why are you applying here? But I am interested in how you put your work in context. What other works is it speaking to or has it been inspired from? Where do you see your work kind of fitting into whatever literary history or whatever literary tradition you choose to claim? you know And you get to pick and choose. like i just We started this with just two wild examples of Silverfish and David Copperfield. That would never work. right But if you're saying somehow my work occupies this liminal space between these two and I'm doing this and I'm doing that, it's that you know it signals to me that you've been thinking this stuff through and you're ready to take the next step. Right. We all know a writer who's sort of like, Oh, shucks. Well, this just came to me. Right. Or I just wanted to explore this character. That's fine. Right. But at the end of the day, you want to, you want to bring a bit more to the table. You don't have to do that with everything. Right. And once again, don't lose sleep over all this kind of crap, but with the sample. Yes. Right? That's where you keep your focus because that's kind of what people are going to weigh the most. ah At the end of the day, you're still going to come in as a writer and we're going to be looking at you as a writer. So you need to put your best foot forward.

Jared McCormack

I'm curious to hear what the actual application review process looks like from your all's perspective. Like you have this big pile of applications. Are you looking at the writing samples first and you're like, okay, that's the most important thing. So we're going to look at those first and then move on to the next thing. How does that all shake out? What's that process look like?

Rone Shavers

I think it's probably different from person to person. But yeah, you know I look at, like for the most part, that's where I spend the bulk of my time. I go to the samples first. like Let's see what we're working with. you know As opposed to like name everything else, I mean, I do that. you know like but yeah But then you know and you kind of cut to the chase. Because in some ways, it's similar to editorial work. And I mean I think this needs to be said, too, that it's easier to say no than it is to say yes, because we have a very limited amount of people that we can accept. And the other thing I know which is probably going to come up in terms of questioning is funding, right? you know so yeah, we're also kind of filtering to see, OK, well, who are we going to award like funding to and everything else? So you know like in terms of weight, your creative sample, wait the most for or, you know, what to focus on. I'm not going to say wait, because again, it differs from program to program. But if you have to do a creative sample, that's always the best thing to focus on. If you have to do a critical sample, that's the next best thing to focus on. You know, you can send a paper that's straight out of a course, right? If it's heavily revised, just say, I heavily revised it, right? Or, you know, if you feel that it's a weakness, just say so, right? You know, if you feel that it's a weakness and you want to improve, you will get more mileage of saying, I'm actually applying to this program because I, you know, I see this as a deficit and I kind of want to learn to improve that sort of skill, right? Then it is just totally ignoring it. So, so you know, address like your elephants in a room or whatever. But then I tend to look at the letters because once again, I'm looking to see what previous professors or the previous instructors had to say about them. And I do want to clarify that it doesn't just have to be professors, it's traditionally that's it, but it can be people from other walks of life too. But make sure they speak about your work. and try to avoid the clunkers. I mean, that's out of your control, right? But that's why I'm kind of telling you what you can do on your end to make sure that you get a positive letter, right? Like when I say clunker too, it's because they're usually sort of, they don't contain a lot of detail. They're just like, yeah, this person's great. I think they fit in well. as opposed to, oh, this is what this person did in my class, this person did whatever, this and that. And it's not uncommon to get, at least at this stage of the game, to get letters that are two or three pages long. So be sure you give that professor a lot of information. Those are like the big kind of three for me.

Jared McCormack

Well, before we wrap up, I wanted to ask you about once students get into the programs. So I'm sure you've seen lots of students at this point coming through the MFA and the PhD program. I'm curious to hear what in your experience are the skills that make someone successful in a PhD in creative writing program?

Rone Shavers

Oh, wow. I love that question. I love that question. That's a really great question. I'm going to keep going back to that idea of a willingness to evolve or willingness to grow right and expand. you know and not like I see a lot of people, like when you enter and it's normal, it's natural to think, okay, I got this locked down. I got my MFA, I'm good. Or like, oh, I'm coming to this program and I'm this way, I'm that way. But you know it's naturally gonna change at a time. Also just having a bit of aesthetic and intellectual curiosity will take you very, very far. you know i mean you don't know what you don't know yet. right you know Just like writing, you know when you're writing and trying to publish, it's always you don't know what you don't know until you kind of get really into it. right and yeah You don't know what you don't know about academia yet, and that's part of why you're there, you know and that's part of what you're going to get from it. as well as much as I say, hey, research these professors. And if you see a few that you want to work with, that's great. But also don't be afraid to branch out and see what other instructors and professors are there too, because some of these people might be totally simpatico with you. And they might even be willing to devote more of their time and energy than the rock star person you know who might be teaching one course a semester who knows right and that everybody's trying to rush into you know and that's so I mean if you just keep an open mind and like engage your curiosity you know like you will go a lot further and get a lot more out of it and be a lot calmer and well-rounded than then if you know if you go the opposite direction so yeah NSW, never stop writing. You'll have to learn to steal time a bit sometimes, right? But yeah, you know, like just keep on writing.

Jared McCormack

Well, Ron, I know you're an incredibly busy man, especially this time of year. So I really appreciate you stopping by. This has been a lot of fun chatting with you. I think lots of good advice for sure.

Rone Shavers

Oh, well, thanks. Thanks. You know, and yeah, like Check out the university. I'm going to give a plug for the university. in you yeah ah But yeah, you know, and I wish everybody luck in their apps. Yeah, that's been fun. Thanks so much.

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